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Episode 14. “Punishments and rewards can get one thing, under certain conditions – temporary compliance” Interview with Alfie Kohn

~ a4aontario

Kohn photo This is a fascinating interview with Alfie Kohn, who has been researching and writing about education, parenting, authority and co-operative learning for years, driving home a simple fact: rewards and punishment are two sides of the same coin –and they’re not helping us to raise the kind of children we say we want to raise.

“The problem with ABA,” says Kohn, “is not just with the method, but with the goal. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that when these kids grow up they are struggling to try to figure out how to make decisions, be assertive and advocate for themselves …because the whole precondition for the temporarily effective use of rewards is the opposite of independence—it’s dependence.”

Listen to the podcast at the link below or on Stitcher here and on iTunes here

Read the transcripts below the audio file.

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Transcription by Julie-Ann Lee: Alfie Kohn transcript_Noncompliant podcast_2020

Bio: Alfie Kohn is an expert on the problem of compliance-training and reward-based systems in the schools, the work world and in the family. His many books include the classics PUNISHED BY REWARDS (1993) and BEYOND DISCIPLINE: From Compliance to Community in which he explores alternatives to our merit-based approach at work and school. He has also critically examined the influence of behaviorism on our education system and the power of cooperative learning, altruism and empathy.

Links from the conversation:
Alfie Kohn’s website: https://www.alfiekohn.org/

Episode 13. “Neurodivergent individuals challenge society to question exactly what normalcy is, if it even exists to begin with” –Interview with Gaby from A4A

~ a4aontario

In this podcast, Gaby and I discussed racism in the education system, the disability hierarchy, media bias and representations of the self-advocacy movement, eye contact and cultural norms, the power of social media, the situation in Ontario and more!

Listen to the podcast at the audio link below. Listen to this episode on Stitcher here
& on iTunes here.


Transcript, by Julie Ann Lee: Transcript_Gaby_Noncompliant

Bio: Gaby received her BA in Biological Anthropology from the University of Toronto. In addition to contributing to the critically-acclaimed anthology “All The Weight of our Dreams: On Living Racialized Autism,” Gaby is one of the founding members of Autistics for Autistics Ontario, the first provincial autistic self-advocacy group in Ontario and an international affiliate of the Autistic Self Advocacy Network.

Her work includes programs to educate health providers on autistic patient experiences and needs, employment accessibility outreach and communications with the governments of Ontario and Canada to reform autism policy. In addition to being diagnosed autistic in early adulthood, she also holds other identities such as being multiply neurodivergent and the first in her family to attend university in Canada.

The Episode: In this podcast, Gaby and I talk about racism, ableism and the overlapping oppressions faced by her family as newcomers to Canada in dealing with schools, the autism services system and higher education. Despite the Government of Canada’s official rhetoric about diversity, Canadian schools and service organizations continue to marginalize newcomers, failing at effective outreach for services, discouraging children from speaking their language of origin and operating community services without meaningful inclusion of people of Colour. Students of Colour are still targeted disproportionately for disciplinary actions and overtly or tacitly streamed out of the path to higher education.

“The social workers, the City workers, anyone behind the front desk did not look like me—or like any other resident in the community they were supposed to be serving.”

While positive models exist in other jurisdictions (supported decision-making, the money-follows-the-person model, independent supported living, school inclusion) somehow Ontario’s system isn’t yet being reformed in any meaningful way. This episode is very connected to what’s happening here—and also part a much longer, on-going discussion within disability rights and autistic self-advocacy towards addressing bias within our own organizations. We have a lot of work ahead of us.

Resources
All the Weight of Our Dreams explores intersectional oppression and realities for autistics of Colour, and it is a must-read, in a world that is too often white-washed and centred on an imagined norm (neurotypicality). Ordering info below:

All The Weight of Our Dreams: On Living Racialized Autism
Autism and Safety, a report by ASAN on police bias against racialized and autistic Americans
The Autism Wars, blog by Kerima Cevik
Autistic Hoya, Webpage by Lydia X.Z. Brown
The Autistic Self Advocacy Network (US)
Autistic, Trans and Latinx: My Survival is our Community’s Survival Against Gentrification by Ruby Herida Eterna De Amor
Black, Female and Autistic: Hiding in Plain Sight, Interview with Moreniki GIwa Onaiwu by Matthew Rozsa
What Does a Black Autistic Man Look Like? A personal essay by N.I. NIcholson
What it Feels like to be an Autistic Person of Colour in the eyes of the Police, by Eric Garcia

Episode 12. “We need much better standards of research in autism intervention”: An interview with Dr. Damian Milton

~ a4aontario

damian In this broad-ranging interview, Dr. Damian Milton & I discuss the theory of the “double empathy problem”; hyperfocus/flow state; autistic parenting; the medical versus social model of disability; the subjectivity of outcome measures; and the diverse ways in which autism itself is framed and defined.

Listen to the interview at the audio link below or on Stitcher here or  iTunes here
Read the transcript below the audio file.

Transcribed by Julie Ann Lee: Transcript_Milton_Noncompliant

Bio
Dr. Damian Milton is a sociologist and lecturer at the University of Kent, on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities through the Tizard Centre. He is also a consultant for the National Autistic Society in the UK, a Director at the National Autism Task Force, Chair of the Participatory Autism Research Collective (PARC Network) and involved in many other research and practice related projects. His most recent book is A Mismatch of Salience: Explorations in Autism Theory and Practice. His scholarship is central to a paradigm shift to understandings of autism in the field.

 

Episode 11. “Creating a home environment that works for everybody”: Interview with Shannon Rosa

~ a4aontario

shannon “”There’s a lot of people out there who are going to try and tell you what your kid needs, but really, autistic people are the ones who actually do know.”

I had a fascinating conversation with Shannon Rosa, co-founder and editor of The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism,  about parenting, autism pseudoscience and autistic acceptance. Our conversation, which wandered between the personal and the political, circled back to the core messages of equity, compassion and inclusion.

Listen to the podcast at the audio link below or on Stitcher here and on iTunes here

Read the transcript. See link below the audio file.

 

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Shannon_Rosa_transcription

Bio: Shannon Des Roches Rosa’s writing and interviews are featured at Huffington Post Parents, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, MacWorld, Parents Magazine and more. Shannon is a co-founder and editor of The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism. She has edited several anthologies and contributed stories to numerous books and the newly edited version of the classic she co-edited, The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism is soon to be published. She lives with her family near San Francisco.

Episode 10. Trauma-informed Mindfulness, Teaching & Care: Interview with Dr Sam Himelstein

~ a4aontario

sam photo

I recently talked with Sam Himelstein, the president of the Center for Adolescent Studies , about the pitfalls of pop-culture “mindfulness” and the importance of trauma-informed care. We also talked about the problems with behaviourist approaches that focus only on measuring outcomes for compliance rather than quality of life.

Listen to the podcast on audio link below, or  on Stitcher here or on iTunes here.

Read the transcript, below the audio file.

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Transcript, by Julie Ann Lee: Himelstein_transcript-Noncompliant

Bio
Sam Himelstein, Ph.D., is a Licensed Psychologist specializing in working with juvenile justice-involved youth, addiction, and trauma. He travels the country speaking at conferences and conducting professional trainings and is the president of the Center for Adolescent Studies.  His mission is to help young people become aware of the power of self-awareness and transformation, and train professionals with similar interests.

Links
The Centre for Adolescent Studies

Episode 9. “Why don’t we work autistic people into inherently fantastic scenarios like a space opera or a globetrotting adventure story?” Interview with comedian Michael McCreary

~ a4aontario

McCreary picI interviewed 23-year-old comedian Michael McCreary about media portrayals, comedy & so much more!

Listen to the audio link below or on Stitcher here
or on iTunes here.

Read the transcript,  below the audio file.

 

Transcript by Julie Ann Lee: Transcript_McCreary_Noncompliant

Bio
Michael began stand-up comedy at the age of 13. He has performed stand-up shows, keynote addresses and panel presentations across Canada and the US. He just published the book entitled “Funny, You Don’t Look Autistic” and recently delivered a TEDx Talk on the topic of autism acceptance. He has also consulted on the television show “Ransom” to ensure authenticity of an autistic character and has appeared on CBC television and radio.

Links mentioned in the podcast
Michael’s book: Funny, You Don’t Look Autistic
Canadian Down Syndrome Society: “Anything But Sorry” video
Pablo show: Pablo-Official YouTube channel
Michael’s Facebook page

 

 

Episode 8. Disrupting the Autism Services Market: Interview with Foundations for Divergent Minds founder Oswin Latimer

~ a4aontario

Oswin Latimer-1Today’s guest is Oswin Latimer, co-founder of Foundations for Divergent Minds, a framework designed by autistic and neurodivergent people for use by families and professionals. FDM works on the principle that when a child struggles it is because their surroundings need to be adjusted–and assessment should find what is missing from their environment. FDM is a portable, affordable approach that is based on equity and access –and in the short time since its launch, it has disrupted the autism services market in a brilliant way, as we discuss in the podcast!

Listen to the full podcast at the audio link below or on Stitcher here or on iTunes here

Read the transcript, below the audio link.


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Transcript by Julie Ann Lee: Transcribed_Noncompliant_Oswin_Latimer

Bio
Oswin Latimer is an indigenous, non-binary, Autistic adult, parent to 3 neurodivergent children and a disability advocate. Oswin is a founder of Foundations For Divergent Minds, which we will focus on in this episode. Prior to founding Foundations for Divergent Minds, Oswin was Director of Community Engagement with the Autistic Self Advocacy Network (ASAN) and in addition to activist and education projects there, they represented the autistic community to policymakers in the US Departments of Labor,  Education, Personnel Management and others.

After leaving ASAN, Oswin spent several years as a disability consultant, advising parents on ways to set up their homes and create individualized education plans that better met their child’s needs. They also compiled and edited Navigating College: A Handbook on Self Advocacy Written for Autistic Students from Autistic Adults, among other projects.

Link:
Foundations for Divergent Minds

Episode 7. “We don’t even need to reinvent the wheel: the wheel’s there”: Interview with Cal Montgomery

~ a4aontario

Cal photo

I spoke with human rights activist Cal Montgomery, a survivor of residential institutions and, after institutionalization. Cal describes how the institutional model is replicated in group home settings, even when they have a veneer of independent living. As he observes: “It’s really not that hard to take a program that looks like it supports self-determination and make it all about control. And we see it done every day.”

We talked about the Judge Rotenberg Centre (JRC), a residential institution that has been using shock torture on autistic and IDD residents. Despite some of the difficult subject matter of this podcast, I walked away with a feeling of hope, the kind of hope that is given by shedding a light on truth–one of the many gifts that Cal brings to the movement.

Listen to the podcast at the audio link below or on Stitcher here
or on iTunes here

Read the transcript, below the audio file.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Cal_Montgomery_Noncompliant_transcript

Bio
Cal Montgomery is a trans, queer, autistic, physically disabled activist and writer in the United States and a survivor of long-term institutionalization. He is a Director of the Board at the Autistic Self Advocacy Network, engages in direct actions and civil disobedience around disability rights issues and is a former member of ADAPT, the US direct-action organization.

Cal is at the forefront of action against the electric shock aversives used at the Judge Rotenberg Center in Massachusetts, which we talk about in the podcast. Cal is probably best known in the neurodiversity community for his essay “Critic of the Dawn”. In it, he writes: “Disability is injustice, not tragedy; unequal treatment, not inherent inequality.” I highly recommend you check out that essay as well as following Cal’s blog, Watch Well: A Blog about Disability.

Links and Sources:
Critic of the Dawn, an essay by Cal Montgomery
Cal’s Blog, Watch Well: A Blog About Disability
Missing Pieces, by Irving Kinsola

Episode 6. “It models how to relate, in a way that’s not overwhelming and respects autonomy” Interview with autistic mentor Raya Shields

~ a4aontario

Podcast
Listen to the podcast at the audio link below or on Stitcher here or on iTunes here

Read the transcript, below the audio file.

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Transcribed by Julie Ann Lee:  Transcript_Noncompliant_Shields

Bio
Raya Shields just received her Master’s Degree from York University (Toronto) in the school of Critical Disability Studies. Her master’s thesis focuses on human rights abuses at the Judge Rotenberg Centre. She is autistic, multiply neurodivergent, and queer. For the last 12 years she has been mentoring autistic children and youth. She is currently working on a series of children’s books.

The episode
Raya and I talked mainly about her experiences as an autistic mentor. She described what the time spent with her mentees looks like: what they do, how they plan and what comes out of the experience for the youth and for their families. I hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I did. Lots of great ideas and inspiration as we move towards inclusion in our society.